对一些人来说，规则构成限制。 对其他人来说
Walker对规则的迷恋及其在社会秩序中的作用使他在专业上和个人上都能找到成功，从发现网络系统中的弱点，到重新定义如何训练计算机以抵御网络攻击，到推动一种可靠的运输方式(自行车)极限的超耐力赛车。
在这次与首席技术程序管理员刘卫星的谈话中，沃克描述了他参与黑客文化如何导致他进入了下一代职业大楼的网络防御，包括他开发首届全机黑客锦标赛的工作。 在此过程中，他反思了为什么有效的安全取决于对信任和背景的理解，竞争黑客是如何教给他团队精神和集体智慧的，以及早期的教训如何重塑他对领导能力的理解。 他还谈到一个重要问题：今天的联网系统是否比十年前更安全？
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语录
[音乐]
如果你想做你想做的事，就必须了解规则。 所以我对规则很着迷，[LAUGHTER] 但你要了解的是规则是一种社会结构。 我认为，在计算机安全领域，当人们听到“安全”一词，并且想到安全系统对他们施加的规则时，每当一个安全系统问用户什么，你就会要求他们的信任。 这种信任是一种宝贵的商品。 所以当你浪费用户的信任时，安全制度就会崩溃。 因此，我认为理解规则的社会背景，而不是仅仅做出即时裁决，是非常重要的。
[音乐]
标准介绍：这是Microsoft Research Podcast，在那里，Microsoft 研究人员 — — 通过基础科技研究推动进步 — — 探索在计算和AI中谁、如何以及下一步是什么。
[音乐ENDS]
嗨，欢迎。 我是Microsoft研究公司的主要技术程序经理。 而今天，我与迈克·沃克(Mike Walker)一起，他是MSR的研究经理，或者说Microsoft Research(Microsoft Research)，他领导了AI，网络安全，以及大型分布式系统的交叉点的项目。
在Microsoft之前，迈克领导了DARPA的"网络大挑战"(Cyber Grand Challenge)，这个先锋程序展示了能够发现和补丁软件弱点的自主AI系统。 而CGC实际上刚刚庆祝了今年的10周年在2026年。
Mike的工作跨越了开创性的努力，包括云母记忆分析，自动恶意软件分析，以及下一代的网络防御技术。
迈克，谢谢你加入我。
很高兴能来，魏
好了，迈克，我们认识几年了我听到你的故事，但在我真正知道你是谁之前，作为一个人，我，我，有点，认识你，就像，“迈克·沃克，那个在那里工作的黑客，” 我敢肯定，你会喜欢的。 我知道你喜欢，当我叫你“黑客”。
但你在很多事情上工作过，譬如，由于认识你和与你合作，新词进入了我的词汇，就像威胁情报，民族国家，我认为还有另外几个词，如果没有认识你，我可能永远不会出现在我的词汇里。
我希望我们能花这时间让观众也了解你。 所以我们要从头开始。 开始是，我相信，迈克，你在俄亥俄州长大。
哥伦布，俄亥俄州。
哥伦布，俄亥俄州。 你在俄亥俄州哥伦布是个什么样的孩子？
我想我是个在树林里待了很久的孩子 [笑我是一个滑板的孩子。 我是个篮球运动员但我认为我大部分是个孩子，阅读书籍，生活在他们自己想象的世界。
你是在俄亥俄州哥伦布的农场上还是在郊区乡村城市？
这是一半和一半。 我在俄亥俄州哥伦布度过了一年的大部分时间，然后每年夏天，我会去弗吉尼亚州拉帕汉诺克河畔的塔帕汉诺克镇。 我完全住在农场里
那么在哥伦布，俄亥俄州，和农场之间，你所做的事有什么不同？
因此，我在俄亥俄州哥伦布做的一些事情是，我父亲是半个科学家，半个风险投资家，他将带我回家的工业设备，并说，“看看你们能从中赚多少，”然后把它扔进我的房间。 [笑声] 非常危险的东西。 他总是给我安全警告，就像，“这是氦离子激光器。” 你知道，“这个管是用玻璃做的。 不要打破它。 然后，“这是一个非常，非常高电压的电源驱动它，它可以电弧并杀死你，” 我知道这是什么意思 [笑声] 然后他会离开我与它。 你能从这里面得到什么，对吗？
所以我会做一些事情，比如，尝试replicate，米歇尔森-莫利实验，因为我有，有桌子和镜子，我可以做到这一点。 我花了很多时间和Apple II在一起，那是我从未去过的其他宇宙的不可思议的机器。 我后来发现，那是，你知道的，黑客空间和信息技术文化，但它来自任何地方，没有任何人我可以谈论它。 于是我花了很多时间试图把Apple II 绑在我的生活中的东西，并试图用那个东西控制它。
好吧，所以你提出一些黑客的东西，所以我不得不问。 有农场的东西。 有，你知道，“爸爸带了有趣的工具和设备回家。” 你怎么会对网络安全感兴趣？
我想我总是在网络安全。 我只是不知道
解释一下
(笑声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声)(掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声(掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌那时我还不知道为什么我对这些事情是如何运作的。
所以，你知道，我运行了一个公告板系统。 在互联网之前，计算机是怎样互相沟通的。 拨号调制解调器，甚至连骨干连接都没有。 每一个BBS-Bulletin板系统，[LAUGHTER] 都是一个宇宙，由它的创造者设计。 所以有这些小宇宙你可以拨入。 然后，在某个时候，所有这些事情我一直在做我的整个生活，某种程度上，与一个事业有关。
当你说，有人可以，对了，有人可以聆听网络上，校园上的每一个警徽刷卡事件，然后replicate他们自己徽章进入任何他们想要的建筑物，因为这一切都是在广播局域网(局域网)里，有人应该改变这一点，如果你称那样的事情，有一段时间，你告诉它的人只会是，“好吧，不要这样做，”[LAUGHTER]对不对？接着。..
你听他们说话了吗？
不，我年轻。
嗯，然后，在某个时候，世界开始认真将规则强加于网络计算机，他们开始雇用感兴趣的人。 这。.. 突然间，这是事业，对吗？我当时想，“哦，我总是在这里，但现在它有一个名字。”
因此，我不得不问，像，你提出了notion规则。 我觉得网络安全和规则有关系你从小到大都有多少规则跟随者
如果你想做你想做的事，就必须了解规则。
对
所以我对规则很着迷，[LAUGHTER] 但你要了解的是规则是一种社会结构。 我认为，在计算机安全领域，当人们听到“安全”一词，并且想到安全系统对他们施加的规则时，每当一个安全系统问用户什么，你就会要求他们的信任。 这种信任是一种宝贵的商品。 所以当你浪费用户的信任时，安全制度就会崩溃。 因此，我认为理解规则的社会背景，而不是仅仅做出即时裁决，是非常重要的。
我将不得不问你最近玩的游戏“公园里没有车辆”(打开新标签)。
公园里没有车辆。 我认为这是一个令人着迷的思想实验。 但是，它只需要理论，即规则很简单，并挑战它让玩家处于判断地位。 因此锻炼的名称就是规则的名称，这在公园里不是车辆。
然后它问你一些很简单的常识问题公园里没有车辆是违反规则的吗？仿佛国际空间站飞越了公园，是公园里的车辆，是违反规则的吗？
迈克，你觉得国际空间站飞过公园是违反规则的吗？
没有。 但重要的是，我们必须有一个有弹性的方法来判断那些连接社会规范的东西。
顺便说一句，你同意公园里没有车辆的民众意见多少？
我很少打破50%。 对
我有90个。..
我经常玩
我觉得我第一次尝试时得到了96%，所以我认为我。.. 这是否意味着我有点像一只狐狸
我想这代表你，你来联络情报员
我被同化了。
对。..
这是它的感觉。
好吧，我们走。 让我们来谈谈我最喜欢的东西，也就是你在60分钟的短篇小说(用新标签打开)中与勒斯利·斯塔尔(Lesley Stahl)进行了交谈，所以现在我得知道你是怎么找到黑客文化的？你参与的程度是多少？你是如何真正参与的？
(笑声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声)(掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声(掌声) (掌声) (掌声) (掌声(掌声(掌声) (掌声)
故事的开始是，我于2001年9月11日在一个起步建筑电信技术公司工作，我住在美国首都华盛顿以外的马里兰州，但那天我妻子在华盛顿特区，然后，嗯，所有的电话都停止了工作。 我的工作场所被一个F-16所淹没，之后，在首都，和人才搜索发现我。
什么，呃，是什么资格，喜欢，你拥有，你知道，匹配他们的人才名单他们正在寻找？
我希望我知道。
世界顶尖黑客？
我想那个标签是后来贴在我身上的
刘：[ 好吧，没事。
我认为我在那天之后成为了一系列文化的一部分，其中之一是在DEF CON Contract the Flag中演奏的一群人，这是在拉斯维加斯的一次黑客比赛。 当你开始参与尝试得到的东西，得到更好的东西的方式，你可以在一个国家或国际层面的竞争，特别是在一种咖啡馆环境
本文由 AI图鉴自动抓取并翻译，版权归原作者所有；如需查看原文请点下方链接。
For some, rules pose limitations. For others, like Microsoft Research Manager Mike Walker, they’re opportunities.
Walker’s fascination with rules and their role in the social order has allowed him to find success professionally and personally, from uncovering weaknesses in networked systems to redefining how computers are trained to fend off cyberattacks to pushing the limits of a reliable mode of transportation—the bicycle—in ultra-endurance racing.
In this conversation with Principal Technical Program Manager Weishung Liu, Walker describes how his participation in hacker culture led him to a career building next-generation cyber defense, including his work developing the first all-machine hacking tournament. Along the way, he reflects on why effective security depends on understanding trust and context, what competitive hacking taught him about teamwork and collective intelligence, and how an early lesson reshaped his understanding of leadership. He also tackles an important question: are today’s networked systems any safer than they were a decade ago?
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Transcript
[MUSIC]
MIKE WALKER: Well, you have to understand the rules if you want to be able to do what you want. So I have, I have a definite fascination with the rules, [LAUGHTER] but the thing you have to understand about the rules is that rules are a social construct. And I think that a lot of … in the computer security field, when, when people hear the word “security” and they think about the rules that the security system is imposing on them, every time a security system asks something of users, then you’re asking for their trust. And that trust is a precious commodity. And so when you squander user trust, then the security regime falls down. So I think it’s really important to understand the social context of rules instead of just having instant adjudication.
[THEME MUSIC]
STANDARD INTRODUCTION: This is the Microsoft Research Podcast, where Microsoft researchers—driving advancement through fundamental science and technology research—explore the who, how, and what’s next in computing and AI.
[MUSIC ENDS]
WEISHUNG LIU: Hi, and welcome. My name is Weishung Liu, and I’m a principal technical program manager here at Microsoft Research. And today, I’m joined by Mike Walker, who is a research manager here in MSR, or Microsoft Research, where he leads projects at the intersection of AI, cybersecurity, and large distributed systems.
Before Microsoft, Mike led DARPA’s Cyber Grand Challenge, the pioneering program that demonstrated autonomous AI systems capable of finding and patching software vulnerabilities. And CGC actually just celebrated its 10th anniversary this year in 2026.
Mike’s work spans groundbreaking efforts that include cloud native memory analysis, automated malware analysis, and next-generation cyber defense technologies.
Mike, thanks for joining me.
MIKE WALKER: Good to be here, Wei.
LIU: All right, so, Mike, we have known each other for a couple of years now. And I’ve heard, like, bits and pieces of your story over time as we’ve gotten to talk. But before I really knew who you were, sort of, as a person, I, kind of, knew you as, like, “Mike Walker, the hacker guy that’s working over there,” which I’m sure you love. And I know you love that, when I call you “The Hacker.”
But you’ve worked on so many things that I’ve never really thought about before. Like, new words have entered my vocabulary as a result of knowing you and working with you, like threat intelligence, nation states, and I think there are a couple other ones that I think would have never been in my lexicon had I not known you.
So I’m hoping we can spend this time to also have the audience get to know you, as well. So we’re going to start at the beginning then. And the beginning is, I believe, Mike, you grew up in Ohio.
WALKER: Columbus, Ohio.
LIU: Columbus, Ohio. What kind of a kid were you in Columbus, Ohio?
WALKER: I think I was a kid who spent a lot of time in the woods. [LAUGHTER] I was a skateboard kid. I was a basketball kid. But I think mostly I was a kid who read books and lived in a world of their own imagination.
LIU: Were you on a farm in Columbus, Ohio, or were you in, like, or is this more suburban, rural, urban?
WALKER: It was halves and halves. I spent my … most of the year in Columbus, Ohio, and then every summer, I would go out to the town of Tappahannock on the Rappahannock River in Virginia. And I lived completely on the farm.
LIU: So what was the lifestyle in what you were doing different between, like, Columbus, Ohio, and the farm?
WALKER: So, like, some things that I was doing in Columbus, Ohio, is that my father, who was sort of half scientist, half venture capitalist, would bring me home industrial equipment and say, “See what you can make out of this,” and drop it in my room. [LAUGHTER] Really dangerous stuff. And he would always give me safety warnings, right, like, “This is a helium neon laser.” You know, “This is … this tube is made out of glass. Don’t break it.” And then, “This is a really, really high-voltage power supply driving it, and it can arc and kill you,” right. And I knew what that meant. [LAUGHTER] And then he would leave me with it. And what can you make out of this, right.
So I would do stuff like, like try to replicate the Michelson-Morley experiment, you know, because I had the, had the table and the mirrors and I could do that. And then also I spent a lot of time with the Apple II, which was this just incredible machine from some other universe that I had never gone to. I later found out that was, you know, hackerspace and, and information technology culture, but it came from nowhere and there was nobody I could talk to about it. And so I spent a lot of time trying to hook the Apple II up to stuff in my life and, and try to control it with that thing.
LIU: OK, so you brought up some hacker stuff, so I have to ask. There was farm stuff. There was, you know, “dad brought home interesting tools and equipment.” How did all of that get you interested in cybersecurity?
WALKER: I think I was always in cybersecurity. I just didn’t know.
LIU: Explain.
WALKER: You know, there’s this idea that you live two lives: the one before you find out your purpose and the one after you find it. This was, sort of, life before purpose, where I didn’t know why I was so interested in how these things worked.
So, you know, I ran a bulletin board system. Before the internet, this was how computers communicated with each other. Dial-up modems, not even backbone linked. Each, each BBS—bulletin board system—[LAUGHTER] was, was a universe unto itself, you know, architected by its creator. And so there were all these little universes you could dial into. And then at some point, all these things I’d been doing my whole life, sort of, got connected to a career.
When you say, you know, somebody could, right, somebody could listen to every single badge swipe event on the network, on campus, and then replicate them and badge themselves into any building they wanted because this is all in a broadcast LAN [local area network] and somebody should change that, there was a time when if you said things like that, the people you told it to would just be like, “Well, don’t do that,” [LAUGHTER] right? And then …
LIU: Did you listen to them?
WALKER: No. [LAUGHTER] I was young.
Um, and then at some point, the world started getting serious about imposing rules onto networked computers, and they started hiring people who are interested in that. And that’s … suddenly it was a career, right. I was like, “Oh, I was always here, but now it has a name.”
LIU: So I have to ask then, like, you brought up the notion of rules. I feel like cybersecurity and rules has a relationship there. How much of a rule follower were you growing up versus how much do you think you are a rule follower now, and was there a difference or have you always been some version of “rule following”?
WALKER: Well, you have to understand the rules if you want to be able to do what you want.
LIU: Yes.
WALKER: So I have a definite fascination with the rules, [LAUGHTER] but the thing you have to understand about the rules is that rules are a social construct. And I think that a lot of … in the computer security field, when, when people hear the word “security” and they think about the rules that the security system is imposing on them, every time a security system asks something of users, then you’re asking for their trust. And that trust is a precious commodity. And so when you squander user trust, then the security regime falls down. So I think it’s really important to understand the social context of rules instead of just having instant adjudication.
LIU: OK. I’m going to have to ask you then about a game that we played recently called No Vehicles in the Park (opens in new tab).
WALKER: No Vehicles in the Park is … it’s a game about content moderation is one way to look at it. I think it’s a fascinating thought experiment. But it just takes the thesis that rules are simple and challenges it with putting the player in the position of judge. And so the name of the exercise is the name of the rule, which is no vehicles in the park.
And then it asks you some very simple commonsense questions about, is this a violation of the rule no vehicles in the park? Like if the International Space Station overflies the park, is that a vehicle in the park, and is it against the rules?
LIU: Mike, do you think the ISS flying over the park is a violation of the rules?
WALKER: No. [LAUGHTER] But it’s important that we have a resilient way to adjudicate things that, that bridges social norms.
LIU: OK. How much did you agree with the population, by the way, of No Vehicles in the Park?
WALKER: I’ve rarely ever broken 50%. Yeah.
LIU: I got like 90 …
WALKER: I play often.
LIU: I think I got 96% on my first try, so I think I … does that mean I’m kind of like a lemming that, like, just understands the social construct of rules?
WALKER: I think it means you, you channel the zeitgeist.
LIU: Mm, OK, I’ve been assimilated.
WALKER: Right …
LIU: That’s what it feels like.
All right. So let’s talk about something that I love, which is you had a short segment in 60 Minutes (opens in new tab) where you had a conversation with Lesley Stahl, and she described you as “one of the world’s top hackers,” at least at the time in which she interviewed you. And so now I have to know, how did you find hacker cultures? What was the extent of your involvement and, you know, how did you really get into it?
WALKER: It, sort of, happened all at once, and I can tell the beginning of the story, and then I can tell you the day that the story stops.
So the beginning of the story is that I was working at a, at a startup building telecommunications technologies on Sept. 11, 2001, and I was living in Maryland, outside of Washington, D.C., but my wife was in Washington, D.C., on that day, and, um, and then all the phones stopped working. My workplace was overflown by an F-16, and, and after that, in the nation’s capital, there was this sudden talent search for people who understood computer security or people who’d always been there but didn’t know what it was called. And that talent search found me.
LIU: What, uh, what were the qualifications, like, that you had that, you know, matched with their list of talent that they were looking for?
WALKER: I wish I knew.
LIU: World’s top hacker?
WALKER: I think, I think that that label was placed on me much later.
LIU: [LAUGHS] All right, fine.
WALKER: I think that I became part of a series of cultures after that day, and one of them was the, the group of people who play in DEF CON Capture the Flag, which is a hacking contest in Las Vegas. And when you start getting involved in trying to get, get better at something in a way where you can compete at a national or international level, especially in sort of a coffeehouse environment where everyone else is tryi
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